Weekend Debate: What Do You Think?

 

           

 

"Chances are, when we meet intelligent life forms in outer space, they're going to be descended from predators."  

- Michio Kaku

"The United States military are preparing weapons which could be used against the aliens, and they could get us into an intergalactic war without us ever having any warning."        

- Paul Theodore Hellyer, former Canadian Defence Minister

What do you think?

Image credit: Collage_Auge_im_Himmel_byLöser.jpg‎

Comments

[Charley Halfwit]

I think someone's been watching too many Hollywood films.. yawn.

[Andrew T]

Kaku's comment: first, why predators? Why not omnivores like ourselves?
Second, why the assumption that an intelligent species descended from predators would still behave like predatory animals by the time they had advanced enough to master interstellar travel?
Third, why should humans be afraid? It's not like they would farm us for food. Being of a totally alien biology, we would probably be poisonous to them (and vice versa). Also, if they're smart enough to master interstellar travel, they're also smart enough to grow their own meat, either farm-raised or synthetically.

Hellyer's comment: wow, this guy sounds like a nutcase. Wonder if he's ever been on the Coast to Coast show. Real conspiracy-theorist material.
Also, he apparently hasn't given much thought to the technology differential between us and any species capable of interstellar travel. Here's a hint. aliens : us :: us : neanderthals
Humanity's most advanced weaponry, even if we were developing weapons to fight aliens, would be the equivalent of firing a Nerf ball from a slingshot at them. Humans would be no threat whatsoever to any aliens that came here. We could launch nukes at them and they'd be like, "aww, how cute. They're afraid of us!" If aliens really wanted to wipe us out, odds are pretty good we'd never see it coming and never know what hit us.

I think both Kaku and Hellyer are still stuck in a mode of thinking where their perceptions of aliens are still highly anthropomorphic. I.e. they assume that aliens would think and behave as we do, like primitive barbarians who still are ruled by thoughts of conquest and fear of those who are different.

[Olga Altstatt]

I wonder how many WARMONGERS are among 7 billions. They should be put into BLACK HOLES for recycling.
We don't expect any GOVERNMENT is telling a real TRUTH About WEAPONS.
wHAT about U.N.? They remind me of TEACHERS who can't conduct in the class because they can't discipline their STUDENTS.

[David Wilhelm]

I would expect the first life discovered would be microbial, being it is generally the most hardy and resilient in the broadest of possible conditions where life might be found. We have already seen new life forms recently discovered within the interior of the earth laying the foundation that the ingredient of light is not a requirement. The fact that we hang out in the region of our Milky Way 'arm' that is a virtual no-man's land would require substantial energy expenditure and travel preparation to make the voyage, barring the space-warp premise. If another species were to target Earth for resources aka "Battle for L.A." the challenge of getting to us I think would prohibit interest. Any pro-active thinking on the part of the military for defense of the planet is a mute endeavor, more productive gain would be preparation for a possible asteroid encounter than meeting a hostile E.T.

[Charley Halfwit]

.. oh, trust a Canadian to come up with such a bullshit quote. I swear they must teach "stupid" in Canadian schools.

[Olga Altstatt]

WE EXPECT aliens to contact us. That's really funny! With all WEAPONS and LOWER BRAIN FUNCTION that prevails in us, ALIENS WATCH us like kids with DANGEROUS TOYS!
ALIENS are coming to watch us at a safe distance.( Trust me on that.)Supersonic FLYING BOMBS and many other SOFISTICATED WEAPONS in Europe and other places worry ALIENS. Not because they can't respond to any of those TOOLS of DEATH.They don't like death like some HUMANS do!

[George F]

I personally prefer the theory that we're still "early" enough in the universe that not much intelligent life has evolved and we're one of the first such occurrences.

With that perspective, it's nice to have the weapons, just in case. Weapons would certainly be more of a deterrent than a cause to attack if we're the vastly technologically superior race.

As far as alien life being predators, we don't have much data to suppose what intelligent life would be. That said, we do have ourselves and animals on our planet to judge from. Breezing through a list of the ten most intelligent animals, only two are predators: the dolphin and the octopus. This might be highly biased data, but it's all we have to use. If we were forced to decide if intelligent alien life might be predatory, we'd say probably not.

Still, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

[Helen]

Let us actually find aliens before we start speculating whether we should start killing them.

[alin]

they will be predators with us only if they know that we will be criminals for the univers in future.
until then, they watch or lab us. :)

[Helen]

Assuming that intelligent life exists, they would have evolved their own Eco systems with their own sources of food. They will most likely be predatory, but to species in their own world. It's quite a leap to say that once intelligent life forms discover us they'll start to eat us.

[Tom of the Sweetwater Sea]

I think Dr. Kaku is wrong. Technical civilizations require language and cooperation. Language requires social contact. Predators are least likely to develop language. The extra weight and energy required for the social, linguistic brain is a handicap when hunting. It slows you down. A predatory specie *could* develop technology but "chances are" it won't. A predatory specie's personality may also be too competitive and insufficiently cooperative to develop the social structures needed for technology.

I could see herd/pack herbivores such as pigs (which are relatively intelligent) developing a language and a society before, say. cheetahs. Pigs co-operate and communicate already. Assuming that they did develop language would they have the personality, the drive, to develop technology? It is hard to generalize from a specific specie, pigs in this case, to the more general case of some generic herbivore.

We don't even know how evolution works, so trying to guess the outcomes is rather hazardous. An interesting thought experiment: If humans disappeared which current animal would be most likely to develop civilization? Dolphins? Chimps? It is like the current question except with more concrete options.

Tom

[Artor]

I see most commenters above are confusing predator with carnivore. Humans are omnivores, but we are still predators. Dr. Kaku is making a reasonable, but presently untestable assumption that intelligence arises from predatory behavior. You have to develop smarts to be able to hunt down your prey. In humans, this innate behavior carries over into our culture & society in many dangerous and counter-productive ways. His concern is that, if the same holds true for other alien species, they might treat us as badly as we treat other life forms, and they would have an obvious technological advantage over us if they are able to get here.
However, it's absurd to think that aliens might come here for our resources. There is absolutely nothing here that can't be gotten much easier far, far away. The only reason for aliens to visit the Earth is to meet and/or study US. Hopefully, such beings will be more interested in learning than in making pointless warfare, but again, I am making untestable assumptions. Nobody has enough information to make a reliable guess here.

[Bob]

I wonder what Paul Theodore Hellyer knows that we don't.

[Leonidas]

As the above commenter smartly points out:

"I see most commenters above are confusing predator with carnivore. Humans are omnivores, but we are still predators. Dr. Kaku is making a reasonable, but presently untestable assumption that intelligence arises from predatory behavior."

That humans aren't carnivores doesn't mean they are not predators. It's a characteristic that we have still intristically embedded in our society. And I certainly do not beleive that huge technological advancement degrades predatory behavior. I don't know about other alien races, but certainly this is true for homo sapiens. Did going to the moon make us less predators?

When we go to the stars, we will certainly carry our biological insticts with us as well, just as we did in every other exploration and exploitation of land through history. Our history is full of examples of the 'advanced' one wiping out the most 'primitive' one. Ask the Native Americans to tell you about it or the African slaves. The US nation is entirely built on the wipe-out of the whole north american native culture! All of human history is full of examples of more advanced civilisations expoiting or killing less advanced ones.

Even in today's world, how many wars are fought because the more advanced countries that have the power, want to take hold of something the less advanced countries have, i.e. natural resources?

That doesn't mean that an andvanced alien civilisation will certainly have to behave that way. My point is that I don't beleive for a second that highly sophisticated technological advancement (like interstellar travel) will make us less predators towards others. It never did.

[Allan W Janssen]

The problem with 1950's sci-fi movies is that they set the standard for everything that came after them, including our notions of their intentions!

[nottobetakenseriously]

They can fly rings round the moon but we're years ahead of em on the highway!

[Knize10]

Paul Theodore Hellyer was never in his right mind, even when he was working as a minister of national defense. He did silly things when he was young and read way too much science fiction, only his God knows how he got to the position he occupied.
Please never quote this man again.

[resonanz]

Dr. Kaku uses a critical term, “chances…” in his thesis about what ET might be like and I appreciate and understand his pulling punches about characterizing the ET we have not yet met. I tend to go along with Dr Kaku that predation is a likely early stage of resource competition in an ET evolutionary path from primitive micro-organism to space travel, but I feel, as other commentators here do, that actual predation is left behind as it is learned/experienced that a consequence of having the predator trait can be species self-destruction as weaponry advances. Thus 'chances are’ the ET we meet will view us with interest and self-awareness from their own root beginnings. This might result in ET being unafraid of us or very leery or ..., creating a matrix of ET decisions whether to make themselves known to us or stay away. But Kaku’s thought about predation also makes one think about other ET characteristics of the so-far-undetected-or-unrevealed-contact. For instance, what might be the ‘universals’ of any life form we encounter? Certainly predation seems to be good candidate to being a universal (maybe one is being too anthro-centered here). But what about the notion of ‘evolution’ itself, is evolution a universal? The answer to this seems a simple enough, ‘yes, but'. And what other universals might there be: energy cycles, carbon-based biochem, bio-information mechanisms (s DNA universal, indirectly I believe NASA seems to think so), development of a brain, temperature-pressure environment (I believe that dependent on the bio-chemistries involved life has a much wider temperature-pressure window than NASA’s “Goldilocks” optimum), individualization (as opposed to group inter-linking), bilateralism as opposed to radial, bi-sexualism e.g., male and female and…, etc. there is a lot more thinking to be done along these lines. But, thanks again, Dr. Kaku.

[GD2]

@ resonanz great questions . I also tend to agree with the prof. I on the other hand can not understand the politically correct group speak here and every where else . In the way of bill maher . Screw that . You can hype grand Ideas all you want but none of them can hold a candle to the true driver of all of us and ET . And that is plain old hunger and greed .And with some of us it is greed and hunger. We hunger for food ,energy ,safety and knowledge. I can pose a question to our earliest ancestor . Why did you nap that flint . She would answer ,so I can cut faster,cut more, eat more ,save more,trade more and defend more . Does any one doubt that greed for profit is driving space tourism .

[DwarfGalaxy]

M.Kaku is warning us to watch out when meeting aliens from outer space they'll probably be dangerous. Or if we are doing the travelling to other systems, aliens out there shouldn't trust Humans, even if the first to arrive are friendly the ones that follow may be completely different.

[Tman]

In all of the conversations about extra-terrestrial life one rarely hears people talk about the relative time of our own human cultural existence compared to the history of the universe.

The light we are seeing today from distant stars is WAY older than humanity.

It's not a very big window.

[Mike]

Remember "V" lmao.

BTW Andrew T omnivores can be predators. You think humans arnt predators?

[Jack Butler]

We could stand to come off the grandiosity. I don't know about "aliens" from other biodes, but humans are not, for crying out loud, "apex predators." We are creatures with large brains who had to devise ways to get nutrition and survive even though we were not especially good at any of the predatory behaviors, like seeing a long way, extremely sensitive sense of smell, built-in biological weapons and tools like claws and powerful jaws. We are the nerds of Earth, who have learned how to make up for our deficiencies with brain power.

That's why we seem so preposterous when we try to come across as "warriors," or "apex predators." We are a lot better at blowing bubbles out our butt in the bathtub than fighting. Sure, we can do a lot of damage. A clown with a pistol can do a lot of damage too, but he's still a clown.

I have a hunch that reasoning ability is prompted to develop by other insufficiencies. What if that is true for the "aliens" as well as us?

[kristianna]

Would alien extra-terrestrials evolve from predators, omnivorousness, or herbivorous? I do believe that would evolve from the early herbivorous hunters that hunted the primordial vegetables. Stalking the wild vegetables., Hollywood has made a ton of stories based on the constant invasion of bungling aliens, with their over the top weaponry, who have nothing better to do than to spend the weekend invading Earth; is really tiresome. Stephen Hawkins believes that aliens are going to come and destroy our culture and way of life, cause they have this predatory nature in them; just we are predatory.

What did the Andorian say to the Kardasian? So what are you doing for the weekend? I am gathering the family for a three day excursion and invade Earth. Why? Just for the fun of it. I got nothing else to do. That bored? Yeah. Besides, humans taste just like chicken. What's chicken?

[Matt Rhodes]

Intelligence is derived from predator instinct.

Theropod dinosaurs survived when sauropods died out. They had larger brains, better eyesight, and were more well adapted to survive after the meteorological cataclysm. We now see them as birds today. Some of which, like the African Gray, have the intelligence of a 3-year old child.