Will Einstein's Laws Apply Beyond Our Universe? A World-Leading Expert Says "No"

Chris Knight, the finest fictional physicist of our time, once said "All science.  No Philosophy.  Wrong."  It's true that an understanding of existence outside of equations is vital for scientists, both in terms of enjoying life and avoiding things like Agent Orange, but beware careless combination of the two.  A science/philosophy mixture can lead to metaphysical claims that the laws of physics are nothing but local zoning ordinances, as demonstrated by Lee Smolin.

Smolin is author of "the fecund universes theory" of cosmology which suggests that the rules of biology apply on the grandest scales, and is often referred to as "cosmological natural selection". Smolin summarized the idea in his book, The Life of the Cosmos.

The theory surmises that a collapsing black hole causes the emergence of a new universe on the "other side", whose fundamental constant parameters (speed of light, Planck length and so forth) may differ slightly from those of the universe where the black hole collapsed. Each universe therefore gives rise to as many new universes as it has black holes.

The Perimeter Institute theoretical physicist got together with philosopher Roberto Unger and arrived at three radically new conclusions. The first is that there is only one universe - the idea of a multiverse might be awesome science fiction, and essential to the slightly less credible string theory, but there's no reason to base your worldview on worlds where the Nazis won or the universal constant of gravitation has a different value.

The second idea is that time is real.  Remember when you read that first sentence?  Okay, you agree with us - this is one of those discussions that takes place at a level regular humans don't argue at.  Some say that all of existence is a crystal of reality that we happen to move through, Dr Manhattan style, which is wonderfully imaginative but displays incredible cognitive disconnection.  Even speaking the words aloud demonstrates the passage of time, and most arguments beyond that depend on bringing the debate to an extremely specific linguistic field of hyper-definitions that the opponent hasn't wasted their life learning, and will therefore "lose" at.  Luckily for us, Lee agrees that time actually exists and we can move on to the real problem: the idea of physics as local rules.

His argument that physics can change over time and space is apparently based on an extremely specific strawman argument which depends on separating experimental procedure into initial conditions and laws.  He says you can only arrive at laws by examining a large "configuration space" of possible setups.  In the lab you can set up a large number of tests, in cosmology you can look at a wide variety of situations, so in both you can arrive at laws.  His argument is that since you can't actually rearrange the stars themselves to set up different initial conditions in each place, you can't make conclusions about the physical laws there.  He uses many, many more words to describe this idea.

It's all very intellectually stimulating, but mainly demonstrates the difference between metaphysics and useful physics.  If you're going to claim that general relativity stops working beyond some sort of interstate-of-existence line, the burden of proof is on you to show that's the case - and strawman arguments on the nature of experimentation aren't going to cut it.  You can say that the plank constant is a variable over time and space, but when we want to build an bridge or a fusion reactor we're going to stick with our silly, provincial, non-new-book-publishing "actual physics."   And that's the difference.

Posted by Luke McKinney

The Unique Universe

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Comments

[Anirudh Kumar Satsangi]

No, Einstein Law does not apply beyond our Universe.

[robert]

Laws? Theories.

[PJ]

Yes, it's doesn't not unapply.

[BobF]

Or maybe the formula was wrong....Please see
www.h2liftship.com
for a correction

[Lukasz]

Science fail, religion win: "It's true that an understanding of existence outside of equations is vital for scientists".
Never returning to this website.

[Narendra Nath]

Fully agree. What to say of other Universes, even our own Universe at or closer to its birth through Big bang, may not be describes by the laws and constants of hysics worked out in the past 500 years or so. The velocity of light for example is expected to be higher, say 50-60 times here than its accepted value. Our Eistein's and other laws all assume a smooth space and time continuum. If there are wide fluctuations or distortions in it, as are well needed to generate mass/energy, the laws won't hold then. Also, if today, we generate a powerful technological system in a space vehicle which can condense space in front and expand space behind, that vehicle can well try far faster than the speed of light!! Easy said than done, but certainly possible some day in the future. Only than the infinite space/universe will become meanigful for us, not just to watch but to enjoy travelling in!!

[Themidnightjudge]

BobF said:
"Science fail, religion win: "It's true that an understanding of existence outside of equations is vital for scientists".
Never returning to this website."
______________________________________________________________________

I don't see that quote as religious, at least not directly. It's more general than that. And an understanding of things outside of equations is important for science.

I can only hope you never return...

[Anirudh Kumar Satsangi]

Providence has located within the human body a special spiritual faculty, and it is the exclusive function of religion to teach man all about that faculty. When that faculty is developed in us like our physical and mental faculties, we shall be able to perceive Truth and realize Ultimate Reality in the same manner as we now perceive and realize the Sun with our physical eyes. And when this takes place, you will be both astonished and amused to find that Truth – the goal of science, Ultimate Reality – the goal of philosophy and God – the goal of religion, are but three names of the same Supreme Essence. (Excerpts from Convocation Address to Graduates of Agra University delivered by His Holiness Sir Anand Sarup alias Sahabji Maharaj, Fifth Spiritual Head of Radhasoami Faith, on November 23, 1935).

Practice of meditation can help to enlighten us in this regard.

[Ivar Nielsen]

EXCUSE ME!

Does the "Einstein Laws" apply in our own part of the Universe?

- I aggree on the "religious views" when it comes to getting knowledge of the Universe. NOT the dogmatic religious part though, but on the Mythological part of the story of Creation, which is far more understandable than modern science - if you can interpret the tellings and the symbols in to the modern Cosmology and Astronomy.

- In my opinion, the whole thing is far more simple but modern scientist have made it complex by adding their strange hypothesis and equations in order to get "the damn thing working".

For thousands and thousands of years humans all over the world have gathered wisdom of both the Heavens and the Earth and it is somewhat ignorant to mean that few hundred years of modern science can give us some real new knowledge of Cosmos. Especially if the moderne science is working with "laws that does´nt apply".

Natural Philosopher Ivar Nielsen - www.native-science.net and www.cosmology-unified.net

[Narendra Nath]

The comments of Natural Philosopher, Nielson and the previous to it of Mr. Satsanghi are of significance. My earlier comments of yesterday evening, all these indicate that there is a need for science to bridge the gap with spirituality (not necessarily the practiced religions). Surely we can hope to reach to better and better relative truths about the universe. Absolute truth may better be left out of the picture as it well may be not interesting for any human mind!

[rajnilu]

The so-called spiritualism is just the figment of imagination and subtle self-deception by confused minds. It is also a psychological escape by people who suffer from a sense of inadequacy and hence yearn to dominate others with mystical verbosity.

Rajnilu
http://rewiringthebrain.net/

[Ivar Nielsen]

@rajnilu,

How is it that you can have the brain as your claimed speciality, and still not believe in the spiritual brain capacity?

Maybe there is some brian-rewiring left for you to do in this matter?

Natural Philosopher Ivar Nielsen - www.native-science.net and www.cosmology-unified.net

[Jay Clark]

We shall see!?! In the fullness of time. Having an open mind allows me to wonder, and perhaps, standing upon the shoulders of others, fully accept that there is no 100% certainty in either position. Which leaves it all open to further examination and interpretation.

Perhaps there are better reasons than we can imagine why NOTHING has ever been proven with 100% certainty, like we're not yet 'ready' to know.

[remoran]

I have a great deal of respect for Smolin and like his take on black holes being the generator of new universes but have a problem with his revised take that we only have one. Reason, Thomas Young's elegant double slit experiment showing the duality of light. When this is examined, Hugh Everett's many worlds interpretation gives a logical explanation as to what is going on, something that must be accounted for in Smolin's new theory. Explain many worlds and quantum theory away and Smolin's notion has legs, if not, Leo may have to rethink this one in a very big way.

http://physics.about.com/od/lightoptics/a/doubleslit.htm

No doubt, it was the most beautiful experiment ever.

[Robert]

Time does not exist. The word 'time' is simply a convention that human beings use in referring to the phenomenon of change.

[Anirudh Kumar Satsangi]

When the meditators proceed spiritual journey internally, various levels of cosmic consciousness they witness are described in Hidayatnama (Sar Bachan) by His Holiness Soamiji Maharaj. Its English version is reproduced below:

HIDAYATNAMA By His Holiness Soamiji Maharaj (1818-1878), Founder of Radhasoami Faith

(ESOTERIC ..INSTRUCTIONS)

‘REVELATION GIVEN OUT IN THE COURSE OF TEACHINGS IMPARTED ABOUT THE VALUE OF ASSOCIATION WITH, AND SERVICE OF, THE PERFECT GUIDE, AND ABOUT THE DIFFERENT GRADES OF ADEPTS, AND INSTRUCTIONS ABOUT THE PRACTICE OF SHABD, AND THE SECRETS OF SHABD MARG (YOGA), AND THE VARIOUS STAGES ASSOCIATEDWITH IT.

This discourse is meant for those who are desirous of finding the Supreme Being, and who are true seekers and want to know which religion is the highest and what path is the most sure and direct. They should minimise their worldly attachments. In other words, leaving the care for wealth, wife and children to fate, they should give paramount importance to the company of saintly persons. And out of saintly persons, the company of that Adept should be adopted who is a practitioner of Surat Shabd or of Drisht; (sight), that is to say, who is conversant with the technique of the Yoga of Surat Shabd, has perfected the practice of withdrawing the spirit currents from the pupils of the two eyes, and of uniting them ; and who performs the practice of raising the spirit, by hearing, internally, celestial sounds.

In case an Adept of this class is not available, they should search out one who performs the practice of `striking the solar plexus with Name’ (repeating the Holy Name in a particular manner at the heart centre), or one who performs the practice of ‘breath control’.

The company of such a person would: also purify the heart, curb evil propensities and confer some inner joy. But the ascension of the spirit can be achieved through the practice of Surat Shabd Yoga alone.

It behoves the seeker to develop love and devotion for such a personge, to perform His service with zeal, to solicit His attention and kindness by rendering service of all kinds with body, mind and wealth, and to gaze at His eyes continuously for an hour or two, without letting the eye-lids close, as long as possible.

The duration of this practice should be prolonged day by day. Whenever He casts His benign gaze on you, your heart will be purified. When, in His grace, He initiates you into the secrets and methods of the practice referred to above, your spirit will begin to catch hold of the celestial sounds. You should perform this practice daily, twice,,four times or as many times as you find time. If your mind gives rise to delusions and wanderings, prayers should be offered to Sant Sat Guru and the practice should be performed with greater effort. Guru’s kindness and your application would certainly result in progress day by day. It is not proper to be hasty or impatient, because haste makes waste, and is characteristic of the devil.

Whatever is achieved gradually is beneficial, and what ever is acquired pronto does not last, because such an acquisition is the gift of Satan. Whatever is obtained from the Merciful Guru endures. All this refers to external modes of devotion. The inner state and the stages to which Sants have access are described below.

When your eye turns inward in the brain and you see the firmament within, and your spirit leaves the body and rises upward, you will see the Akash in which is located Sahas-dal-kanwal, the thousand petals of which perform the various functions pertaining to the three worlds. Its effulgence will exhilarate your spirit. You will at that stage, witness Niranjan, the lord of three worlds. Several religions which attained this stage and took the deity hereof to be the lord of all, were duped. Seeing the light and refulgence of this region they felt satiated. Their progress was stopped. They did not find the guide to higher regions. Hence they could not proceed further.
At the apex of this Akash, there is a passage which is very small like the eye of a needle. Your Surat (spirit) should penetrate this eye. Further on, there is Banknal, the crooked path, which goes straight and then downward and again upwards. Beyond this passage comes the second stage.

Trikuti (Region having three prominences) is situated here. It is one Lakhi Yojan2 in length and one Lakh Yojan in width. There are numerous varieties of glories and spectacles at that plane which are difficult to describe. Thousands of suns and moons look pale in comparison to the light there. All the time, melodious sounds of Ong Ong and Hoo Hoo, and the sounds resembling thunder of clouds, reverberate there. On attaining this region, the spirit becomes very happy, and purified and subtle.

From here onward, it becomes cognizant of the spiritual regions.

After having enjoyed the bliss of this region for some time, the spirit goes up one crorel Yojans and reaches Sunn, the third stage. Mohammedan Fagirs (Saints) bare called it “Lahoot.” It is indescribable. Here, the spirits enjoy great beatitude. The refulgence of this region is twelve times that of Trikuti.

Pure pools of ambrosia, called . “Mansarovar”, abound here. There are innumerable flower pots and gardens. Spirits,, like beauties, dance at various places. There are pleasing and sweet victuals, all savoury and fresh, and sonorous and musical strains can be heard every where. All this bliss can be experienced by the spirit only when it reaches there. It cannot be described. At every place, fountains of nectar are at play; in other words, pools of nectar are overflowing and streams of nectar are gushing out. How can one describe the splendour and decoration of this region ? There are platforms of diamonds, beds of emeralds and plants of jewels, all studded with rubies and precious stones. Bejewelled fish, swimming in pools there, display their beauty and ornamentation and their glitter and sheen attract attention. Beyond this, there are innumerable palaces of caystals and mirrors, in which spirit enities reside at their respective spots, as allocated by the Lord. They witness and exhibit ever changing revels. In Hindi, they have been described as “Hansa Mandlies”. The decoration and embellishment of these regions can be appreciated only by seeing them. The entire creation there is purely spiritual. It is Free from material constituents. The denizens, there, are spiritual and free from
physical taints. Full particulars of these regions are known only to Sants. It is not meet to describe them in greater detail.

Having sojourned there and having enjoyed the glory thereof for a very long time, the spirit of ` this Faqir moved on, in accordance with the instructions of the Guides. After traversing five arab and seventy-five crore yojans upward, the spirit entity effected ingress into the bounds of Hahoot and witnessed the panorama of that region. There an expanse of ten Neel is enveloped in darkness.

The depth of this dark region cannot be fathomed. The spirit went down one kharao yojans, still the bottom was nowhere to be found. Then the spirit turned upward and proceeded on the path chalked out by Guru. It was not considered advisable to go down right to the bottom of this region I his region is called Maha-sunn There are four extremely subtle sub-regions there, the secrets whereof have not been revealed by any Sant. There are prison cells for the condemned spirits, ejected from the court of the True Supreme Being. Although these spirits are not subjected to any trouble and they perform their functions by their own light, yet, as they do not get the Darshan of the Lord, they are restless. However, there is a way of their remission also. Whenever Sants happen to pass that way with spirits reclaimed from the lower regions, some of these spirits fortunately get Their Darshan. Such spirits go along with the Sants who very gladly take them to the court of the Lord and get them pardoned.

The spirit, thereafter, went to Hootal Hoot, which, in Hindi, has been described as Bhanwargupha. There is a rotating swing here which is all the time in subtle motion, and the spirits ever swing on it. All round, there are innumerable spiritual islands from which the sounds of “Sohang Sohang” and “Anahoo Anahoo” rise all the time. Spirit entities playfully and rapturously enjoy these sounds. Other characteristics of this region cannot be reduced to writing, as they can be realized by the spirit only when it reaches there by performing Abhyas. Hence it is necessary to continue the practice of this mode of devotion and it is called the Shabd (sound) practice. Do not give it up.

Having witnessed the spectacle of this region, the spirit entity proceeded upward and went on ascending. Whiffs of scents of various kinds and sweet fragrance of sandal were enjoyed by the spirit and the melodies of flutes were heard, while it proceeded onward. On crossing this plane, the spirit entity reached the outpost of Sat Lok, where melodious sounds or “Sat Sat” and “Haq Haq” were heard coming out of the Bin’. On hearing this, the spirit penetrated further rapturously.

There rose to view silver and golden streams full of nectar, and vast gardens, each tree there of being one crore-Yojans in height. Crores of suns and moons hang from them as flowers and fruits. Innumerable spirits and Hansas sing, chatter and play on those reel like birds. The wondrous beauty of this region 1s ineffable. While enjoying it, the spirit entered Sat and came into the presence of Sat Purush.

Now as regards the glory of the person of Sat Purush, each hair of His is so brilliant that crores of suns and moons look pale in comparison. When such is the refulgence of each hair, how is it possible to describe the glory of all His hair, and where are the words to describe the beauty and glory of His entire person ? How can one describe His eyes, nose, ears, face, hands and feet ? They are all nothing but refulgence ; even to describe them as oceans of refulgence does not give even he remotest idea.

The expanse of Sat Lok is one padam Palang, a palang being equal to Triloki in vastness. Hence it is -difficult to imagine the stupendous vastness of Sat Lok. here dwell spirit entities called Hansas who enjoy the Darshan of Sat Purush, hear the music of the Bin and -partake of ambrosial food.

After witnessing the glory of this region, the spirit proceeded to Alakh Lok and got Darshan of Alakh -Purush. The expanse of this region is one sankh, and each hair of Alakh Purush has the effulgence of arab kharab (billions many times) suns.

Thereafter the spirit entity went on and attained Agam Lok, which is Maha Sankh4 Palang in expanse and the magnitude of the person of Again Purush equals crore Sankhs. The forms of Hansas of this region are amazingly wondrous, and the state of ecstasy and bliss that obtains there passes description. The spirit entity sojourned there for a long time and, on going beyond, it got the Darshan of Radhasoami, that is, Anami Purush, and merged in Him. Radhasoami Dham is boundless, infinite, endless and immeasurable. It is the fm ma Nij Sthan, the special resting place of Sants. (Fagirs). That region is the Ultima Thule of all Sants and all speech and description end here. I also conclude here..

[Genessa]

Einstein laws could apply beyond our uniiverse. We as humans cannot be sure because we have not gone beyond this universe so we do no know. We can only conudct more research.

[Anirudh Kumar Satsangi]

Einstein's Law can not apply even in our Universe. It is full of controversy. Einstein's law is purely based on his intuition and not on any empirical study

[Ivar Nielsen]

SCIENTIFIC AND INTUITIVE CONCEPTS.

As mentioned by Anirud Kumar Satsangi above, Einstein is supposed to have used his intuition a great deal. By doing so, he looked at the cosmos in an alternative way compared to the traditional scientists and thereby he got some new ideas.

- It is my opinion that Einstein could have gone a long way, still using his intuition, but he fell in the same black pit hole as the traditional mathematicians in order to try to explain his intuitive ideas mathematically. Thereby he got it all mixed up.

TIME is a linear measurement. Space is curved, it is stated. Time/space or space/time concept therefore can not be true. Some light phenomenon in space moves momentarily in seemingly straight lines, but most objects in space are moving in spirals.

It is a general cosmic law when a straight force of cosmic light or rays hits gas and matter, swirls is created. The light or ray is bended/swirled in this process, creating the cosmic gas and matter to swirl, heat up in the concentrated swirling, melt together and turn itself inwards-outwards in larger spheres of gas and matter, thereby creating stars and planets.

Everything in the Universe (Uni=One=1) moves and changes between in- and outfolding spirals. If time is connected to a spiralling space that both moves inwards and outwards, time cannot be linear. Either time is an illusion or time goes both ways in the spiralling Universe.

The traditional cosmologists got it very wrong when connecting the earthly linear time concept to macrocosmically movements. They confuse a generally inwards and outwards spiralling movement with time and therefore one also must doubt very much on the linear "big bang" concept.

The inwards and outwards movement comes very clear when studying the galaxies. All galaxies go either inwards or outwards in their movement, depending of which actual state it is in the creation.

The movement in our own Milky Way galaxy goes outwards and therefore there is no suction or "black hole" in the middle of our galaxy.

On the contrary, new stars are still born in the supposed "black hole" that otherwise should suck everything in and away. And if one look closely at the barred structure, one clearly can observe the outgoing movement from the suddenly, explosively created bars going out from the center and, because of the swirling movement, abruptly creating the Milky Way arms in a 90 degree angle, moving further and further out from the center.

Throughout thousands and thousands of years, our foremothers and forefathers have gained intuitive and spiritual knowledge of life on Earth and life in Heaven. Our common global Mythological stories of Creation tell the very same story regarding our life in the Milky Way galaxy.

"Once upon a time" everything was created "in the middle of nothing". Out of darkness light was created. Stars and planets was created in the middle. By the Tree of Life in the middle of our galaxy humans were created in the middle of the garden.

Then, in order to describe the outwards movement from the center of our galaxy, the story of the expulsion from Paradise is told, NOT because of any wrong doings by the first to human beings, but just in order to mythological/cosmological describe how things is created in our Milky Way galaxy, moving out from the center.

That is, if right, our Solar system is born directly out from the center of our galaxy and not out of a pre solar molecular disc that "suddenly decided to collapse". Of course our Solar System have later on been modified after leaving the center of the galaxy, but originally it was created right out of the center - as everything else in our galaxy. A mythological example of an Egypt symbol is shoving just this:

http://www.native-science.net/Cosmology.Final.Natural.htm

Scroll down to: THE ANCIENT STORY OF CREATION IN THE MILKY WAY

For more explanations, feel very welcome to visit my sites containing subjects of alternative Mythology and alternative Cosmology:

www.native-science.net
www.cosmology-unified.net

Any feedback is welcome: nielsen.ivar(at)gmail.com

NB: Please bare over with my somewhat restricted English vocabulary.

Kind Regards from Natural Philosopher Ivar Nielsen, Denmark

[Genessa]

No Einsteins Theory will not apply beyond our universe. There is nothing beyond our universe. Beyond the planets is the universe and thats just it.

[Anirudh Kumar Satsangi]

Thank you Nielsen for your excellent comments. In fact Sun is our immediate and visible God. There are many other power centres in the Universe. The Final One is Ultimate Creator, God of Gods, The Supreme Father.

[prem]

@Anirudh Kumar Satsangi.
The exrept from Hidayatnama is not for everybody.Its for true seekers only.It has been instructed not to disclose it to anybody else.If non satsangi are quite interested you can give them some hints,thats all.It is unacceptable and uncalled for to put it in full detail here.Furthermore radhasoami mat does not require propaganda.Only adhikari Jeevs should be informed that is too in person or in satsang.Never in a baazar like place as this

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