The Great LHC "Doomsday" Black-Hole Controversy -Part Two

Another day, another person pleading with us not to turn on the LHC in case it sucks the Earth out through a tenth-dimensional pinhole.  The difference is that Otto Rössler is indeed a qualified scientific professor.  A professor in biochemistry, perhaps, but maybe we're not supposed to notice that.

Professor Rössler has been able to back up his fears with slightly better math than the usual "really bad means multiply by a MILLION" the anti-LHC crowd wave around.  His argument is based on a particular form of the Schwarzchild metric (a general relativity solution which describes the gravitational field of a black hole).  Which is why we can't just look at it and say "wrong" - other scientists can, though, and while we don't want to spoil the ending the words "misleading", "not understood" and "substantially wrong" turn up a fair bit.

He does seem to be a smart guy, having successfully dipped his hand in fields as varied as chaos theory, language studies and biochemistry. But when a man like that takes a look at a field and goes up against people who've spent their whole lives on it, unless his name is "Clone of Leonardo DaVinci with computer implants" our money's on the professionals.

Unlike Daily Galaxy favorite nutball Walter Wagner, however, Professer Rössler does seem to be acting out of genuine belief rather than media-whoring.  For one thing Rössler's website doesn't ask you for money.  This makes his relentless dedication to the cause quite endearing, as nothing short of a direct meteor strike will stop the LHC activation now.  Even the LHC crew view him as great publicity, and he's doing his best.

And what a best it is.  For example: writing to other scientists to get them to dismiss Hawking radiation isn't okay - but writing to Stephen Hawking asking him to dismiss Hawking radiation?  Professor Rössler, we salute you for your hilariously brave effort.   (PS It was unsuccessful)

Rössler's Rage against the Machine http://www.scientificblogging.com/big_science_gambles/professor_rossler_takes_on_the_lhc

Disproof of Rössler's paper (warning: physics so heavy your monitor may fall through the desx http://www.achtphasen.net/index.php/plasmaether/2008/08/08/gerhard_w_bruhn_darmstadt_university_of__2008

Comments

[JTankers]

Quote: "nutball Walter Wagner"

Actually Walter L. Wagner is far from a "nutball", he is a talented nuclear physicist who first enlightened CERN of the fundamental flaws in their cosmic ray arguments. In a March 2008 email CERN LHC Safety Assessment Group acknowledged the validity of the concerns.

"... While it is true that a BH produced by cosmic rays would not be stopped by the Earth, there are many other "things" in the universe that could trap such CR-produced BH's, thus leading to visible consequences. This study is being completed, and will soon be documented in a report."

LHC enthusiast Dr. Ian O'Neill of astroENGINE.com (http://www.astroengine.com/?p=589#comment-507) said the following of nuclear physicist and attorney Walter L. Wagner:

"the first thing that struck me was the breadth of knowledge he had on the subject"

* "Wagner is far from being a fantasist or “crank” (as I’ve seen unkindly written in some of the media)"

* "I admire Wagner’s spirit, he is following through with a lawsuit he believes in"

[Dennis]

Hey, look! It's Walter's sock puppet!

[Boris Moser]

Why have you changed your RSS feeds to only a few post lines? I used to read the posts directly from gReader, now it's become impossible.

[Dave]

Oh Please. It's not even a sock puppet. Wagner plays his own games. It's good to have people with alternative views. But jeesh.... talk about making up a whole fantasy. Reminds me of the ferak in he movie "Contact".

Regards
Dave

[Ian O'Neill]

Dear JTankers,

It seems we meet again! Do you have time for anything else except leave comments on ALL LHC blog articles??

Firstly, as we've debated before over at http://www.libertylounge.net/forums/33531-tevatron-experiments-double-team-higgs-boson.html you know I am NOT an advocate of Wagner's lawsuit. I was simply stating that he seems like a nice guy. I believe he is totally wrong in what he is trying to do and I believe there is some financial "incentive" to his aims as mentioned above. I also said in the article you keep plastering over every website you come across:

* "his views are more in the realms of speculation, rather than being based on the actual physics predicted"
* "Using the LHC to recreate some of the conditions the moment after the Big Bang is based on robust physics theory. Micro black holes and strangelets are not."
* "Even if a micro black hole could be produced, robust physics theory predicts they will fizz out of existence in an instant."
* "There is practically no way strangelets can be produced (LHC energies are too low)."

Just because I though the guy wasn't crazy doesn't mean I didn't think he was wrong (and a little unhinged). As for our boy Rossler, don't get me started!

Thanks, Ian

[Vierotchka]

I live right next to the Large Hadron Collider, so if it is to create a black hole, I will be among the first to enter it. Should this happen, I promise I will post here to tell you all what it looks and feels like. ;)

[Freemon Sandlewould]

I don't know why anyone is worried. We are all doomed from our large carbon feety boots. I would go nuclear on this issue but it wouldn't be good karma zen.

[Keith Chrystie]

The LHC at CERN is just one out of the myriad number of technologies we should wait for until we have created at least one other self-sufficient human colony in space, so that if something goes wrong, we don't automatically exterminate the only intelligent life we know of in the universe.

Open Source colonization of space is the only way we can do that quickly enough.

[Seymour]

At last , a scientist questions the LHC .
The questions and logic of it should be asked.
Do you pseudo scientists really believe the human brain is capable of understanding the bedrock of the universe. Evn Steohen Hawking backed down from his prior statement of maybe understanding thr mind of God.
Bertrand Russel and Whithead and Hilbert tried desparately to prove the mathematics pertaining to the system of numbers and arithmetic was complete and would never contain paradoxes like Russels paradox and the paradox of "This statement is false" which really worried them.
In 1932 ,in Austria , Godel presented his proof of the Incompleteness Theorem which was the complete opposite of the above quest.
No one present asked Godel any questions for except John Von Neumann from the Advanced Studies at Princeton because he alone understood it and comprehended the importance of it. The others present did not have the brain power.
He proved that there an infinite number of TRUE theorems based on the axioms of arithmetic ,but only a tiny portion of these TRUE conjectures are PROVABLE.
The majority may be TRUE but never will be PROVABLE.
To extrapolate , In the universe there are known Laws Of Physics some of which may model the universe approximately , quantum particles , super string theory and such encompassing the microcosym and macrocosym .
We cookbook technicians merly copy nature to learn new ideas like radar and sonar and the infra red which are utilized and are additional senses of some of the other creatures of nature. Likewise we build colliders to find new particles the brute force way to learn more secrets of nature.
We are not capable of a complete understanding of the mind of God as Stephen Hawkings stated.
There are hidden truths and proofs in physics which are beyond our senses and ability to model prove or comprehend as we are just an insignificant part within the universe .
Like Godel stated we must find the truths outside of our universe if they exist at all.

[Rober H]

I agree with Seymour but I don't understand Godel Completely. So I will look him up.

And now a Scientist cautions and has the audacity to question the LHC startup !
Another view is not based on science but on logic as to our place in the universe and our incomplete knowledge of it.
Granted some of us pseudo-scientists and scientists may have superlarge Egos but since we are part of nature and since we do not have a superbrain we can not control or understand nature.
We can't know the complete bedrock of the universe as we can't know the complete mind of God as Stephen Hawkings postulated.
We are egotists if we believe such nonsense.
You are right follow godel's thinking methods see that Incompleteness applies to Quantum Physics as well as Arithmetic.
We can never understand or model the universe or even particle physics.
So we should not proceed and take unknown risks .
They exploded the atomic bomb without knowing the cpmplete outcome for sure .. some thought a chain reaction could occur throughout our atmosphere.

From WIKOPEDIA :

Kurt Godel was Einsteins best friend and was also a former physicist and proved a special part of relativity related to time travel as a gift for Einstein on his birthday.
Kurt Godel brought the Mathematical world to its knees in 1932 in Austria with his remarkable proof of his Incompleteness Theorem .
The logicians and philosophers who attended that presentation and the papers by others on philosophy paid no heed to his thesis and many never could understand his proof.
Professor Hilbert and others understood the valid proof and although his works were destroyed by it he angrily and grudgingly admmited the proof was solid. It was said to have been the most important discovery in mathematics in the twentieth century.

[Dennis Nilsson]

"CERN to Start Up the Large Hadron Collider. Now Here's How It Plans to Stop It"

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/aug08/6558

[Marty Ferguson]

The Georgia conflict will go on, the Olympics will conclude in less than two weeks, researchers will continue to work on alternative fuels, another robot will land on Mars, the U.S. economy may or may not recover...AND BY THE TIME SOME OR ALL OF THESE ISSUES ARE RESOLVED THE LHC WILL BE ONLINE AND RUNNING AND NOBODY WILL EVEN REMEMBER THAT THERE EVER WAS A PANIC OVER IT!!

M

[knoxvilledaniel]

This is a Worst Case Scenario that makes " The China Syndrome " look like a tempest in a teapot. Whatever. I still think that the only hazard, in reality, is residual radiation from the LHC.

Still, as I said in another post on the LHC, an environmental impact study might not be amiss, just to ease the queasy stomachs & jangled nerves of the Prophets O' Doom.

As a matter of curiousity, how much power will the LHC use anyway ?

[livingasana]

hello-nassim haramien? anyone heard of this guy- crossing the event horizon? why is this stuff not posted on here? this is the real shit.

[EMMA]

Look its a waste of money. A waste of time. And has potential danger. I am surprised its even allowed. Ah well if something does happen at least those scientists will be the destroyers of Earth and Mankind.
Lets hope we all survive.
Because we are dealing with things we dont not know about fully! FOR GOD SAKE! Who will kill mankind? WE WILL!!!

[Benjamin]

It seems Teller and Ulam made a rather large miscalculation in the first fusion bomb test. They where calculating the explosion would yield around .9 megatons.

It came in at 9 megatons.

10 times greater.

It stands to reason to me that the universe has extreme dangers that can be accidentally discovered by infantile proto civilizations much the way drain cleaner can be 'discovered' under the sink by a toddler.

One of the tests is not what you choose to do, but what you cautiously choose not to do.